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Old Swiss buses and trolleybuses
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nokia2110
microbus


Inscrit le: 19 Nov 2011
Messages: 10
Localisation: Bucureşti (Bucharest), Romania

MessagePosté le: Sam Nov 19, 2011 1:27 pm    Sujet du message: Old Swiss buses and trolleybuses Répondre en citant

Hello. 1st of all sorry speaking in English, but is the only forgein language that I know. My name is Ştefan (Shtefan), I'm from Romania and I love pre 1970 Swiss vehicles (trams/streetrcars, buses and trolleybuses). In Romania and neibouringh Bulgaria they bought some old Swiss vehicles (some even manufactured (produced) in the '50's!!!). And the 1st Diesel-Electric locomotive used in Romania was Swiss Made! (the locomotive is preserved at Dej Depo, Cluj county). And the clasisccal Diesel-Electric Romanian locomotive (series 60) where produced under Swiss licence; in fact 8 where manufactured (produced) in Switzerland (they preserved only the 1st one of the Cool.

I'm intrested in finding more techincal and historical datas about some vehicles (buses, trolleybuses and trams)
BUSES:
1) "F.B.W." S.V.B.71U. If I would have reach town of Miercurea Ciuc up untill 2009 I would have ridden one. The 3 buses where bought in 1990 and runned up untill 2009. Miercurea Ciuc is a very small city and people are more cilivzed there. I don't know where exactly those buses are now (they are probably in the yard of this company http://transptur.ro, but I'm not shore about that).
http://forum.transira.ro/viewtopic.php?t=894
http://ciuc.stfp.net/?ttx=A4
http://www.trittbrett.ch/tvb/svb157.html

2) This model of "F.B.W." (what model was?) - I mean the older one, not the "Mercedes" from the 1st 2 pictures:
http://forum.transira.ro/viewtopic.php?t=3577

3) "Saurer" 5 DUK-A (they where converted into trollyebues in Bucharest):
http://forum.transira.ro/viewtopic.php?t=1223
They where all scraped. The guys from R.A.T.B. (Regia Autonomă de Transport Bucureşti/(The) Bucharest Autonomus Transortation Administration) promised one (1) to an public transoration fan organaziation, but they scraped it (along with oter vehicles...).

TROLLEYBUSES:

TROLLEYBUSES:
1) "F.B.W." 51 TR.. The transportaion company is selling them (there are 3) + some other Swiss trolleybuses (manufactured in the '60's):
http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/bg/...e_27_05_04.jpg
http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/bg/...BW/ruse-05.jpg
http://forum.gtsofia.info/index.php?topic=273.20
In this video from 1989 they look as they are gong pretty fast. They could run at 40-50 k.m.p.h.?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spBMpaR50IQ&feature=related

2) "Saurer" 4TIILM:
http://tramclub.org/viewtopic.php?t=5457
http://www.ratt.ro/forum/index.php?showtopic=1338

3) "F.B.W." 51GTr:
http://forum.transira.ro/viewtopic.php?t=2419
http://trolleybusvalparaiso.blogspot...ticulated.html

4) "F.B.W." (what model is?):
http://sibiu.stfp.net/?ttx=Lf (the ones which I'm intreseted on are #221, #222; #224, #231, #232, #234)
http://www.trittbrett.ch/tvb/vb9.html


TRAMS:
Be 4/4 + B4. There was any difference between the Be 4/4 made for Geneve and the ones made for Bern?

I'm curios: why up untill the '70's most Swiss buses and trolleybuses had seats positioned sideways? (I mean like this: http://forum.transira.ro/files/dsc01508_113.jpg )

The only Swiss vehicles that I've ridden up untill now where
1) "Sauerer" 5 DUK-A, but only after they where converted into trolleybuses. 1st (first) time I saw I "Saurer" I thought "Saurer" was an Frebch company.
2) One Be 4/4 tram in Sibiu (Hermannstadt) in 1997. It was the painted one, which they scraped. I din't know back then that that tram was so old!
Up untill after 2000 it was the oldest tram that I ever ridden (up untill 1997 it where the German"Dü.wag/Due.wag." T4 + B4/L + l bought in the '90's in Bucharest from Frankfurt am Main)
http://tramclub.org/viewtopic.php?t=655

When I was in Sibiu in 1997 I din't know they had an 1960 trolleybus down there or that the trolleybuses from Sibiu where made by a different manufacturer from the ond from Bucharest and that ones from Bucharest wheren't from the begining trolleybuses. And is uslles to say that when I was in Timişoara in 2002 the ones from Tram Club Banat didn't talled my about the old trolleybuses ("Saurer" 4TIILM from 1960).
And like I use to say: "The oldest trolleybuses preserved in Romania are Swiss Made, of course".


Dernière édition par nokia2110 le Dim Nov 20, 2011 6:06 pm; édité 2 fois
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nokia2110
microbus


Inscrit le: 19 Nov 2011
Messages: 10
Localisation: Bucureşti (Bucharest), Romania

MessagePosté le: Sam Nov 19, 2011 1:28 pm    Sujet du message: Re: Old Swiss buses and trolleybuses Répondre en citant

Double post. By mistake I pressed "qute" in stead of "edit".
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swisstrolley
mégabus


Inscrit le: 19 Sep 2006
Messages: 229
Localisation: Neuchâtel

MessagePosté le: Sam Nov 19, 2011 7:27 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

Hello Ştefan,

I can give you some information about the FBW B51U and 71U, so those here: http://forum.transira.ro/viewtopic.php?t=3577 because they come from Basel - as I originally do.

30 FBW B51U have been build between 1965 and 1970 for Basel in different sub-series (Numbers 48-52 build in 1965; 53-67 build in 1966/67 and 68-77 build in 1969/70) which are nearly identical. They have FBW EDU six-cylinder Diesel motors with 170 hp (= 125 kW) and can run up to 60 km/h. Total lengh is 11,25 m. Numbers 48 - 52 were retired from regular service in 1983, the others mostly found their way to Eastern Europe in 1996 (replaced by Mercedes O405N NG) and 1999/2000 (when the MAN NG 535 arrived). As far as I know, numbers 48-52 stayed in Switzerland and have been scraped here, as well as numbers 71 and 73. No 75 is kept by a swiss amateur and is still operable (it can be chartered for special events, weddings etc).

FBW 71U (those on the first 3 pics after the Mercedes) are a bit younger. 7 of them (numbers 78-84) have been build for Basel in 1979. They have FBW EU4AK six-cylinder Diesel motors with turbo loader and 255 hp (=187 kw). Maximum speed is 60 km/h. All of them have been sold to Eastern Europe in 2000.

If ever you should be interested in pictures of these buses when there were in service in Basel, just let me know and I can send you some.

Kind regards,

Pascal

Pour les francophones: Ştefan est roumain et grand fan des trams, trolleys et autobus suisse, spécialement ceux datant d'avant 1970. Il cherche des informations sur les trolleys et autobus sur les photos que vous allez trouver sur les liens qu'il a mis. Je pouvais lui donner une réponse concernant les véhicules provenant de Bâle. Il demande en outre s'il y a des différences entre les trams standard Be 4/4 de Genève et de Berne.
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nokia2110
microbus


Inscrit le: 19 Nov 2011
Messages: 10
Localisation: Bucureşti (Bucharest), Romania

MessagePosté le: Sam Nov 19, 2011 7:50 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

But there wheren't "F.B.W." 71U built aorund 1970?
Excepting the body work (karosserie) there is any difference between those "F.B.W." 71U with rectangular light spots and the "F.B.W." S.V.B.71U?
The 51U and 71U had semiatomatic (electro-pneumatic) gear box or automatic gearbox?

What buses where equypt with the Diesel engine from here?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franz_Brozincevic_Wetzikon


Dernière édition par nokia2110 le Sam Nov 19, 2011 7:55 pm; édité 1 fois
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nokia2110
microbus


Inscrit le: 19 Nov 2011
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Localisation: Bucureşti (Bucharest), Romania

MessagePosté le: Sam Nov 19, 2011 7:54 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

I agian mixed up "edit" and "quote". On another forums they are positioned other way around and I'm used with that position.
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swisstrolley
mégabus


Inscrit le: 19 Sep 2006
Messages: 229
Localisation: Neuchâtel

MessagePosté le: Sam Nov 19, 2011 11:01 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

51 U and 71 U are the chassis' denomination. They both have been used for buses and trucks between about 1950 and 1980. I couldn't find information about what the difference between those two types of chassis is.

The bernise 71 U were build in 1959/60, those for Basel in 1979 (!)

All vehicles have semi-automatic gearboxes.
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Webmaster
administrateur


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Messages: 296

MessagePosté le: Sam Nov 19, 2011 11:53 pm    Sujet du message: Re: Old Swiss buses and trolleybuses Répondre en citant

nokia2110 a écrit:

TRAMS:
Be 4/4 + B4. There was any difference between the Be 4/4 made for Geneve and the ones made for Bern?


Concerning the electric part of Be4/4, the ones for Geneva were equiped with SAAS propulsion control while the ones for Berne were with MFO. However, as these vehicles have been build more than 50 years ago, I don't know all the details...
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nokia2110
microbus


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MessagePosté le: Dim Nov 20, 2011 12:42 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

@swisstrolley: how many seats had 51U and 71U and how many people could carry those buses? Did they had a lot of seats posotioned sydeways? What was the fuel compustion? But the weight of the bus? And why the top speed was only 60 k.m./h.?


@Webmaster: what is the difference beteween S.A.A.S. propultion control and M.F.O. propultion control?


Dernière édition par nokia2110 le Dim Nov 20, 2011 1:02 am; édité 2 fois
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nokia2110
microbus


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MessagePosté le: Dim Nov 20, 2011 12:49 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

nokia2110 a écrit:
@swisstrolley: how many seats had 51U and 71U and how many people could carry those buses? Did they had a lot of seats posotioned sydeways? What was the fuel compustion? And why the top speed was only 60 k.m./h.?

@Webmaster: what is the difference beteween S.A.A.S. propultion control and M.F.O. propultion control?
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MessagePosté le: Dim Nov 20, 2011 11:59 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

For city buses, it was not necessary to provide more than 60 km/h top speed:
- the speed was corresponding to the official speed-limit
- swiss cities are small (limited total distance and between stops)
- the limited power of the motor (<200cv) was better user with short speed gears, as most of route profiles are not flat but climbing


SAAS: Société Anonyme des Ateliers Sécheron
MFO: Maschinenfabrik Oerlikon
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nokia2110
microbus


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MessagePosté le: Dim Nov 20, 2011 3:48 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

Sad news: the "F.B.W." B51U 54L from Săcele, Romania (they where 3: ex #68, #21 - ex #69, ex #72) might have been scraped. They where writhdawn in 2009. I'll try to find out if they where scraped or only writhdawn.
http://transport-in-comun.ro/sacele/parc.htm (casat = scrapped, but as I sayed before I don't know if they scraped or only writhdawn).
Later edit: they supouse to be at the firm, "Transptur" from Lupeni, Hargita county, where the 3 "F.B.W." S.V.B.71U from 1965 are (where) too.

Din in the interior of the "F.B.W." B51U 54L resembled with the interior of the older 51U?
http://www.aptrading.nl/?joure_netherlands/available_coaches_and_buses/5/
I found some techincal data about B51U 54L:
http://www.google.ro/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=fbw%2051u&source=web&cd=22&ved=0CCUQFjABOBQ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.roman-wegmueller-bern.ch%2Fbvb75_deutsch.pdf&ei=lhPJTpGMIsz24QT4udRO&usg=AFQjCNFAPH2MYoyK0slT3WGqpcJzSKSH-g&sig2=Ipb7aQRUweLEeShBcwfb2g&cad=rja

@Webmaster: I was cruios if there was any technical differce between S.A.A.S. and M.F.O. controlers.


Dernière édition par nokia2110 le Mar Nov 22, 2011 3:48 pm; édité 2 fois
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MOBUL
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MessagePosté le: Dim Nov 20, 2011 4:25 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

Hello Stefan aus Roumany

Speak germany ?
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nokia2110
microbus


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MessagePosté le: Dim Nov 20, 2011 4:31 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

No, only Romanian and English. But I can use google translate.
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Coccodrillo
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MessagePosté le: Dim Nov 20, 2011 4:47 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

Si quelqu'un ne sait pas parler anglais, peut utiliser le français et attendre une traduction par un autre membre du forum.

If someone doesn't speak English, he can use French and wait for a translation by another member of the forum.
_________________
Salvate italiano e francese, per favore!

Sauvez l'italien et le français, s'il vous plaît!
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nokia2110
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MessagePosté le: Mer Nov 23, 2011 1:44 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

Where I can find old ads and comercial for Swiss vehicles (even trucks)?

I'm curios: why, in the past the Swiss made so good vehicles. It was just the trend of that time, that sayed you have to manufacture things that will last long (that was a good trend in my opinion) or there where other reasons?
Why the Swiss stoped manufacturing that will last long?
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